Not gonna lie, nearby fediverse drama has subtly dropped down in intensity since Kaniini finally logged off. Unfortunately for them, they returned to posting on $TWTR, which is just one stressor for another, no? Algos to organize all of the silo's 6 different forms of retweets.


I noticed it too. Twitter may be a stressor but there is a difference in scale and therefore, attention. Small fish in a big pond v. big fish in a small pond.

@dee @HarneyBA

well, i am still here, technically. just lurking.

really the main reason i left is because 90% of my interactions became meta bullshit, and having to be associated by proxy with gleason/spinster/etc due to being a pleroma dev was not pleasant for me -- basically gleason was the final cherry on an entire pile of shit.

as for the fediverse verses twitter -- twitter has a "low quality interaction" filter built into the platform which for the most part means that snipey concern trolls don't even make it to my mentions.

Pleroma sort of has that (I designed it), but the problem is that the concern trolls here can get traction, leading to instance admins doing instance blocks, etc, so you can't get around the meta bullshit if you're an admin. because of *that* type of fuckery, most of my friends have gone back to posting on twitter anyway.

and, because i was *previously* an admin, and because the concern trolls warped whatever bullshit about me into whatever, i feel i am largely a liability to any other instance. so, it's just best for me to lurk, if anything.

@dee @HarneyBA but if i start to use the fediverse in significant quantity in future, it will certainly not be as an admin. i'm not going to ever be involved in this trainwreck as a dev or admin ever again. whether or not i use the fediverse then ultimately comes down to what the majority of my friends want to do -- they got fedi fatigue and went back to twitter.

@kaniini @dee @HarneyBA i really like fedi and the community i've found here but seeing gleason infiltrate all the social circles around me is making me seriously question people's judgment

fwiw the rest of the admins have got your back here and if other instances don't like that, they can go fuck themselves. i for one do not mind getting instance-blocked by petulant canceldon randos; if anything that should save the rest of our users some hassle

@velartrill @HarneyBA @dee

i mean, there are certainly people on the fedi i would like to keep interacting with.

but i'm pretty sure that i'm not interested in being an admin or dev ever again.

thing is, lain and feld want user growth at any cost, and that cost includes alienating the people who first started using Pleroma. that's fine, I guess, and it's not like I disagree with much of what Gleason wants to do.

but the problem is that whenever I use a Pleroma instance, I think about all the meta shit, Gleason worming his way into the project included. and, so that's why I generally avoid interacting around here.

maybe, someday, i will install Honk or something.

@velartrill @HarneyBA @dee

like, the alt-right people who use this platform asked recently "if i find out twitter employs TERFs, will I stop using it"

what they don't understand is this has nothing to actually do with Gleason; this has to do with lain refusing to show solidarity with the community he created. it was very clear that many of the original contributors were not enthusiastic about having Gleason involved at all. but lain and feld chose user growth over solidarity. and that's the *actual* problem.

and it's not just that.

there has been a pattern of choosing user growth over what the devs actually wanted to do for a long time. look at the pressure they put on HJ to shoehorn stupid shit into Pleroma FE (which admittedly I helped with, but looking back on it, I regret doing so). features and design should bubble up from the community, not trickle down from management.

@kaniini @velartrill @HarneyBA @dee What exactly did Gleason do? Also, it's nice to see you again! lain_smug
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@sjw @kaniini @HarneyBA @dee he runs spinster

@velartrill @HarneyBA @dee @kaniini Ah, didn't realise they ran Pleroma.

@sjw @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill

i explained that in a second post.

this has nothing to do with Gleason himself, but instead a significant portion of the dev and admin community not wanting to interact with him because of his views.

the reason I left really is lain and feld making all decisions without consideration of what the community at large wants.

Pleroma's current direction of pursuing features in the name of user growth without asking anyone if they actually want those features is another example of what the problem ultimately is.

and that is caused by the same line of thinking as "hey, lets work with this controversial dude that a ton of admins in our community don't want to work with, because he can get us users!"

@kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill just so you know, I stand firm and defend interests of already existing users and push the idea of "you many never get new users you want but you can easily lose existing users". Unfortunately people here don't want too much work such as involved with backwards compatibility or not breaking things.

Problem is - I'm a minority in many subjects, and pushing anything is ridiculously tough. If only people who have interests in things would stick to their interests and things instead of leaving and disappearing.

@kaniini @sjw @HarneyBA @dee it's not his views that bother me, it's the fact that he's actively helping people who want to harass & fuck up the lives of innocents organize

@kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill Ah, now I get it.
That being said, I just want tags to work again cryingcat
That's really the only feature I want.

@velartrill @HarneyBA @dee @sjw

yes that is a large part of it, too. and he is doing this using things i worked on. but from a project level view, that is a sufficient summary.

@sjw @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill

we can see this line of thinking with the new ChatMessage feature. they have hyped it up, but the reality is, nobody cares because folks are using a dedicated platform outside fedi for their messaging needs.

@sjw @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill

that would be difficult to achieve because of the way tags are indexed in Pleroma. "everything is JSONB" sounds great until you have to actually deal with stuff like tags.

they could split tags out into a separate ARRAY column, but that would involve a heavy migration.

@kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill If it had channels that'd be cool. Like Matrix but not shit code.

@sjw @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill

that's kinda sorta what i am working on these days instead of Pleroma. but we are in very early days yet of that.

@kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill deicated platforms outside fedi suck massive fucking balls tho. Riot/Matrix/Element is SHIT. XMPP barely has any good clients especially on desktop, and all of the clients are developed at a snail pace. I think it makes sense and I want that feature but I want it to continue evolving.

@hj @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill

do yourself a favor and push against the mastodon E2EE feature then. message franking is a disaster.

@kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill Most people are using Telegram and Discord, not a client that anyone here actually wants to be a part of. A small demographic use XMPP, and probably a smaller one use Matrix.

Integrating chat is a good thing. It's not revolutionary, and not worth hype (which I don't think anyone is doing outside of a very few enthusiasts?) but it is a welcome addition.

@kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill
>"everything is JSONB" sounds great until you have to actually deal with stuff like tags.
Exactly! We're basically running sql between two jsonb god tables so performance is shit.
Putting tags into their own array column would greatly improve performance

I suspect trying to view the posts you've favourited eating a tonne of CPU is because of a similar reason. Haven't looked into how favourites are stored/retrieved tho.

@boob @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill

which would you rather have:

- a chat feature

- actual bugs in Pleroma fixed (like the fact that Pleroma suddenly forgets when random people are following you, slow timeline building, slow tag fetching, ...)

@kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill Well, I hope it goes well. You make good software and we really need a FOSS self-hosted Discord alternative that isn't hot garbage.

@kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill Why does it have to be either/or?

If you're asking would I rather have slow and stable, yes. That doesn't mean you let a project stagnate for the sake of perfectionism. I'm not a dev but I've made that mistake with other projects, it kills them.

@kaniini @boob @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill I'd like the 2nd one please!

@kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill do i look like self-pleasing-elephant developer to you? I don't do activity poop, i only have some barebones understanding of how network works and even less how backend transforms AP bullshit into MastoAPI magic. As you might know yourself - shit's opaque - it's mostly two guys discussing shit in private and agreeing on stuff as usual. As far as I know there's little to no public discussion about E2EE, only lain's doing some investigation on it.

again, you were mostly backend dev, you're more fit to discuss shit about network and protocol, but you're nowhere to be found.

@boob @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill

the problem is that the majority of dev effort is focused on new features, and not fixing bugs.

@kaniini @boob @HarneyBA @dee @sjw also why does everyone act like irc isn't a thing all of a sudden?? sure it's not E2EE but irc with mandatory TLS on a server in a country with reasonable privacy laws is still pretty darn good

@kaniini @boob @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill Meanwhile the Misskey dev does both.
Kinda sucks seeing how stuff like search and tags on Mastodon just work and are super fast and here on pleroma that isn't the case at all.

@velartrill @HarneyBA @boob @dee @sjw

ironically, the thing i am working on uses IRC as the signalling, providing a discovery layer for web services (like WebRTC) on top for the things IRC is bad at.

@sjw @kaniini @HarneyBA @boob @dee @velartrill

My main problem is that it tags a lot of media wrong and it is a old bug and they don't do nothing for fixing it

@velartrill @kaniini @HarneyBA @boob @dee IRC works but not in the same way. It also sucks for battery life on mobile devices.

@sjw @velartrill @HarneyBA @boob @dee

there are ways to integrate IRC and push messaging. that's something the IRCv3 group has unfortunately not spent much time working on, but it's possible

@kaniini @velartrill @HarneyBA @boob @dee That sounds super interesting

@kaniini @HarneyBA @boob @dee @sjw one thing i would really like to see implemented is a modern chat server that speaks IRC natively but directly implements shit like what we all currently use bouncers for, like built-in message history, and adds extra features like file transfers and things. i have a shitty work-around on our community server where i just give people znc or quassel accounts on the same system as the irc server itself, but it's really lame to have to do it that way

@velartrill @HarneyBA @boob @dee @sjw

that is literally what i am building. also, the ability to make channels and identity portable (kind of like fedi, but done right).

@sjw @HarneyBA @boob @dee @kaniini i've had no problems with this but then again i use sailfish where battery life is in general not a problem

@kaniini @HarneyBA @boob @dee @sjw ohh! oh shit that's awesome

@kaniini @HarneyBA @boob @dee @sjw thank you, i am so glad someone is finally working on this

@kumicota @HarneyBA @boob @dee @kaniini @velartrill IIRC actually good filetype detection is being worked on.
@lanodan knows more about it.

@sjw @HarneyBA @boob @dee @kaniini (also the multitasking isn't completely cucked so you don't wind up with zillions of background tasks and no clear indication of what's running and what isn't, and you don't need proprietary push notification shit for notifications, and so on)

@kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill Yeah, I mean, I'm not necessarily saying priorities are on point. I don't think anyone actually wanted emoji reactions, for example. But that's the biggest sin I can think of. 95+% of the time everything works as intended. When it doesn't, it's rarely anything important, or it's fixed in the next major release. It seems like a pretty healthy project, perfect is the enemy of good and whatnot.

@sjw @kaniini @HarneyBA @boob @dee @velartrill

I think the main reason that they are pushing new features and not fixing bugs it because when misskey did polls everyone complained how bad it was done(I don't know if it is) but I remember that people asked for polls before that but none of them cared enough to do except the misskey dev

@boob @kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill

A small demographic use XMPP, and probably a smaller one use Matrix.

And I guess even fewer people use Tox.

@kaniini @HarneyBA @boob @dee @velartrill Huh, still, it's not really the same since you have to be connected to the server and you can't just see what you missed while you were offline.

@sjw @kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill Idrc about tags but is Mastodon search good now? Last time I used it was about as bad as Pleroma.

@boob @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill

well, you see it from the end-user perspective.

from the admin perspective, it is largely "why is postgresql pegging CPU again today? why are queries falling over again?"

and from the dev perspective, it is largely "maybe if we add emoji reactions, we can get users"

when i was running instances, i deployed a shared postgresql for them that had 256GB of RAM allocated for cache. that made Pleroma fast, but it's not realistic.

@velartrill @HarneyBA @boob @dee @kaniini That can't really be fixed by using a different OS.

@boob @sjw @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill I feel like it should be seperate

@sjw @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill @boob quassel for android solves the message history

@kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill Fair enuf. I've never gotten a federating Pleroma instance up and I only had a Mastodon running for a week on a fairly generous server, so I don't have a concept of how well it functions.

@boob @HarneyBA @dee @kaniini @velartrill The search on GLC is fast

@deavmi @sjw @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill Why would it be? The utility is it prevents the oft made mistake of accidentally publishing a DM as public. You want it to be approximately as convenient as the direct scope, but distinct from it. They did a good job as far as I can tell.

@deavmi @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill @boob You aren't using IRC on your phone at that point.

@boob @deavmi @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill

they could have done that by simply prohibiting DMs from leaving DM scope. no need to add a new object type.

@boob @sjw @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill I feel like do one thing and do it well. Like dms are like twitter dms. That is that. For chat use xmpp - something built for it.

@sjw @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill @boob Guess so. Yeah. But hell it's like the best fix for now.

@kaniini @HarneyBA @deavmi @dee @sjw @velartrill Well, fair enough. I'm not Lain's Dad nor am I a programmer, I'm not going to tell him or the rest of the devs how to do their jobs. It's neat, it didn't take that long for them to make. Looks harmless, only real problem for now is compatibility

@boob @kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill I've had WAY better experience admining Pleroma than Mastodon lmao. It's a huge social network platform, you can run it on a computer that fits in an Altoids tin, I don't know what more people could possibly want.

@deavmi @sjw @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill Okay, that's fine, you're free to. Some people would rather have multiple similar functions integrated in one place. Being able to keep notes in Misskey, for example, is one of the biggest reasons I love and donate to it.

@boob @sjw @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill guess so. Now that is cool!

@boob @deavmi @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill

Misskey looks like a very nice platform. I don't want to deal with managing a NodeJS service for my own personal use though.

@alex @boob @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill

once a Pleroma instance starts scaling out, it is basically as much of a nightmare to manage as Mastodon.

managing is a nightmare, almost everything on the fediverse is actively federating with it.

when i handed it over to href, the database was almost 300GB.

whenever href updates the instance, it takes several days to run migrations.

it took several days to import too, when i handed it over.

@boob pleroma be high speed low drag @kaniini @HarneyBA @dee @sjw @velartrill

@kaniini @alex @HarneyBA @boob @dee @sjw alright tag me out, please, i don't want that creep in my mentions if it's all the same to you

best wishes to everyone who doesn't run spinster

@kaniini @HarneyBA @boob @dee @sjw Disk space is probably the most expensive part of it I think. Still worlds better than Mastodon on any server I've run it.

@kaniini @alex @HarneyBA @boob @dee @velartrill Yeah, another downside of just storing everything as jsonb

@kaniini @boob @HarneyBA @deavmi @dee @velartrill Yeah, that's one of the main downsides.

@sjw @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill @boob is it for supporting all the bells and whilstes.

@alex @HarneyBA @boob @dee @sjw

CPU time is the most expensive part. Many things downgrade to hash scans and seq scans because the indices fail to keep up. This is why "VACUUM ANALYZE" is a common suggestion for "fixing" Pleroma performance issues (temporarily).

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@sjw @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill @boob I meant is NodeJS for supporting all the aforementioned extras in misskey?

@deavmi @sjw @dee @HarneyBA @velartrill @boob

no. misskey is in nodejs because that is what the author uses.

@kaniini @HarneyBA @boob @dee @sjw I've not had that experience yet, but maybe because I haven't run a Pleroma server for long enough. On the flip side you'll be lucky if you can run a Mastodon server with 100 users on 4GB RAM. Pleroma can do that on 500MB.

@alex @HarneyBA @boob @dee @sjw

Mastodon can do that on 500MB, if you know what you're doing.

@kaniini @sjw @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill @boob I assume y'all ain't a fan.

I mean, neither am I.

@deavmi @sjw @HarneyBA @dee @velartrill @boob

i'm mostly uncaring, tbh. i just don't wish to deal with it personally.

@kaniini got you

@deavmi @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill @boob You could make a Misskey clone in any language, even PHP if you wanted. Hell, is a reddit clone written entirely in ASP.NET which is probably the only thing worse than PHP.

@sjw @dee @HarneyBA @kaniini @velartrill @boob I've never looked at web in .NET.

In Python and all other languages I am accustomed to them but damn .NET would be interesting.